Fun Despite the Depth! TUGPM Take Three

General discussion about the Twilight Series Universe.

Postby Tennyo » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:38 pm

Silly Bella, I think that fact that that goes into a fanfic is made of awesome. Your brain power blows me away.

But one thing about Edward catching people in the act: We're talking about (from my estimation) at least 78 people all "caught in the act". It seems statistically fairly impossible. On the other hand, we're working on the information we have, and in canon and most of Stephenie's widely known comments, there doesn't seem to be a definitive in that Edward only killed people who were in the process of commiting atrocities.

As for killing them after they had commited the act, Edward was still reading their minds and judging them on what he heard there. To me, the fact that he was actually "right" about the ones he killed is only a small part of it. I would go on more but I've already said it and have the feeling that if I repeat it won't sound as good.
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Postby firefly » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:48 pm

Tennyo wrote:But one thing about Edward catching people in the act: We're talking about (from my estimation) at least 78 people all "caught in the act". It seems statistically fairly impossible.

Nah. It's Edward. He'd never, ever make such a fatal mistake. More's the pity. It might ruin his <strike>hair</strike> appeal.
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Postby llovetwilight » Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:31 pm

December wrote: I actually find it very hard to invoke my real-world moral judgements in thinking about these books, because the events in them are so fantastically outside what I hope I'm likely to encounter in my life. Does anyone else have this difficulty?


I see what you mean... And you are right, it is hard to completely resolve "real-life" rules with the fictional reality we are discussing. But, I agree with Cocoa that we truly bring our "real life" views into play here and that this debate really boils down to a fundamental difference in views. I also tend to agree with her on the points of whether or not bad people have the right to live, regardless of the suffering they inflict on others.

SB- I don't think you are a geek! I'd love to read the fanfic...

And in a fairly short answer to your question: The Cullens are monsters as described by the first definition and they are by nature, selfish as described in the fifth. However, imo, while what the Cullens are potentially capable of might cause horror or disgust, they themselves do not inspire horror and/or disgust and therefore do not fit into the 5th definition... James, Laurent, Victoria on the other hand... are pretty creeepy!!!
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Postby LisaCullenAZ » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:53 pm

Cocoa wrote:

Now I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree. I happen to believe that there is a point when a human being gives up the right to exist by doing vile acts inhuman atrocities.


and then...

Firefly wrote:
Would you act as their judge, jury and executioner? Which is what Edward is doing.


Edward was not doing that. He was looking for dinner. I said this earlier, but I'll say it again. He wasn't out on the town trying to be your friendly neighborhood vampire. He wanted blood...human blood...and he thought he could live with himself a little more easily if he made an effort in being selective. It didn't work. He owned that. And he stopped.

And as for me being willing to act as thier judge, jury, and executioner? Well...tell me first what the crime is and I'll let you know. ;)

I'm with Cocoa on this one. My feelings stem from some kind of base belief, as she mentioned as well, which isn't really about to change...even though I respect the differing opinions of others.
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Postby cullengirl » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:39 pm

So the question becomes: Does being a monster by the first definition of monster automatically make you a monster by the fifth definition of monster?

SB, I think the Cullens fit both of the definitions. They are essentially deformed because they no longer have the human, bodily fluids in them, they're stone cold, and contain venom. Due to their appearance and special abilities, I due think are most likely to be harmful. It's the Cullens decision to not feed off of humans that make them easier to relate to and makes us readers less afraid of them.

Adding this debate to your fanfic is terrific. I can't wait to read it. And by no means does it make you a geek.
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Postby Sasha » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:42 pm

LisaCullenAZ wrote:Edward was not doing that. He was looking for dinner. I said this earlier, but I'll say it again. He wasn't out on the town trying to be your friendly neighborhood vampire. He wanted blood...human blood...and he thought he could live with himself a little more easily if he made an effort in being selective. It didn't work. He owned that. And he stopped.


Yes, Edward was looking for a meal. However, he was also justifying the killing he did by killing those he saw were evil, and who he decided did not deserve to live as much as the soccer mom with two kids, or the graduate student at Harvard. Then, he killed them. There's the judge, jury and executioner for you.

Also, when I asked my mom about this (and once she got over the hypothetical question starting "Say you're this vampire who can read minds..."), she immediately said that she, also, would rather kill serial killers. When I asked her why, my mom gave a reason not yet mentioned on here: she said the serial killers were competition. The more serial killers, the less other people. :D
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Postby Tennyo » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:02 pm

Sasha wrote:Also, when I asked my mom about this (and once she got over the hypothetical question starting "Say you're this vampire who can read minds..."), she immediately said that she, also, would rather kill serial killers. When I asked her why, my mom gave a reason not yet mentioned on here: she said the serial killers were competition. The more serial killers, the less other people. :D


Please go tell your mom she is made of awesome.
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Postby NeonDaisies » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:16 pm

Heh, now I have this image of Edward in a farmer's hat and carrying a pitchfork and he goes after the foxes sneaking into the chicken coop and killing his prize layers.....
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Postby Heart Song » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:27 pm

Sasha, you need to get your mom on the boards. You can assure her that she's not the only mom lurking here. :)

I have to agree with everyone who has talked about Edward looking for dinner and I think I've alluded to that myself in previous posts (I don't remember exactly where. My brain is kind of befuddled tonight). Edward, as all vampires are, is a predator at the top of the food chain. IMO, we are so used to thinking of ourselves as the top of the food chain that when we are presented with a being who is above us we are trying to put our own values on that.

In the human realm, some have chosen a vegetarian diet, similarly, Edward has made a dietary choice when he opted for murderers and rapists. In time he discovered that this option was no longer satisfactory, I his case for moral reasons similar to many human vegetarians.

We can not force the entirety our human values onto a vampire. They are not human even if their roots are in humanity. A zebra can not force its values on the lion who is about to make it her supper.
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Postby eddyismymonster » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:33 pm

I think the other reason, Edward choose to kill the evil, otherwise then looking for dinner,is that he tried to be a good real vampire. Even if it was hid rebelious years, he subconsiously coudn't be a real vampire. because when he was "Born" he went straight to a veggie diet. And though he wanted to listen to his instincts, mentaly he couldn't fully change. That is why he chose the middle, killing the worst of humans, which were pretty much "animals". So his other motive, i tink, was to be a good real vampire.
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